Paying Your Way with Hugs and Kisses

[mrdreamjeans]

A few days ago gotmoof (Tim) and I were chatting about being guys who take responsibility for our lives; we were talking about my debt reduction plan, his home renovations, about paying bills. We agreed that taking charge, following the rules and being the only one we count on in these matters was hard at times. Wouldn’t it be nice (and much simpler), we laughed, if we just had someone to take care of us? Tim jokingly said that he was going to put his name in the lottery for a sugar daddy. I facetiously replied that the only way I was going to be taken care of was if I was remembered in someone’s Will. Ha!

Kidding aside, I’ve never been someone to be taken care of in a relationship; well, maybe emotionally, but never financially. It wouldn’t even occur to me to rely on someone else to pay my way, even when I was a 20-something. I expect(ed) to earn a living and pay my bills and I have had the same expectations for the person I am dating or with whom I’m in a relationship. I expect honesty and integrity, a willingness to take financial responsibility from the the guy with whom I’m involved. I’m willing to help that person make their dreams come true, to go out of my way to help them set goals and create a plan of action that might result in a good job or a better life, but I'm not his personal banker.

If my partner needed my help or there were temporary career setbacks or health challenges where I had to step up to the plate, I’d be there in a heartbeat! I am generous with my time and resources. I’m not speaking about the ebb and flow of healthy relationships, but to the topic of sycophants. I’m addressing the kinds of people who pay their way only with hugs and kisses, with sex and fleeting charm ... the Peter Pans who won’t grow up ... the duplicitous folks who spend more time and effort using other people, than it would take if they just earned a living or worked hard in support of someone else. I don’t think this type of person is as prevalent as once was, even in the older man/ younger man model of earlier decades, but I do think he/she exists and I deplore the behavior when I see it.

Does the “sugar daddy” still exist? (I make a distinction between the terms “sugar daddy” and “daddy”. I believe the terms describe two very different types of men.) Have you ever looked back and realized, in hindsight, that you were taking care of someone, paying all of the bills, the only one reaching for their wallet on every occasion, having been blinded by hugs and kisses? Is it a welcome enough trade-off ... your physical needs satisfied for being the guy to pay someone else’s way? I have a wealthy 80-year old friend with a 45-year old lover. They've been together 15 years. The younger man has never been with any other man. Initially we were all horrified, blaming the younger guy for being a user. But in the ensuing years, I've never seen anyone work harder than he in terms of making their home. He does all of the physical labor around their multiple properties. Perhaps, my older friend who foots the bills, is wiser than me.

I don’t have judgment if both people have their eyes wide open, but I do know what works for me. I will continue to work and save, to pay my debts off on my own, to earn my way in life, hopefully attracting the same kind of men as I have in the past. (I've been lucky.) I’m willing to wait. A thought just occurred to me... I’m not and will never be a sugar daddy.... but maybe it’s just possible to be a daddy with a little sugar on the side... that’s it... I’ll take my hugs and kisses on the side in a balanced and loving relationship. You hear that dating Gods?!?! HA! Till then, I'm the one working his ass off to get ahead:)

Comments

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

You ask the questions I ask myself. Tim and I hit a healthy balance for awhile, so I believe that it is possible to find it...again.... At times, I like the "daddy" element in a sexual situation, but want and expect an equal in other parts of the dynamic that creates a successful relationship. And ... I do realize there are different and acceptable definitions of "equal".

Whether I am touring or not, I will continue to "work my ass off" as I always have goals to fulfill, dreams to turn into reality and a burning ambition. I hope that the person I eventualy hook up with will understand that, whether I am traveling all of the time or I'm home every night, it is my desire to be fully present to them. Close proximity isn't necessarily a sign of immediacy and intimacy.

I appreciate what you've said here. I appreciate that you believe that I "deserve even more". Hugs!

[markosf.livejournal.com]

I know the sugar daddy/taker couple does exist. I've been witness to countless such relationships where one is perfectly willing to pay for his partner while the other is perfectly willing (and usually expects) to be paid for. Usually both know full well they wouldn't be together were the money dynamic not there, and often numerous rationalizations take place to explain to others why the situation is justified or not really happening. To each his own, but I have a lot more respect for those who are honest about their whoring and tricking.

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

I agree. I can't imagine expecting someone else to pay my way. I'm not talking about a date, or a give and take situation, but the expectation that someone should always be the one to pay. Unvarnished honesty is best on both sides of the equation. Thanks for commenting, Mark.

[markosf.livejournal.com]

It's one of my pet peeves, being honest about these kind of relationships. I once had a boyfriend ask to move in and try to convince me him paying zero rent wasn't really me paying for him since my expenses weren't going up. My response was to him was: "I'm not saying no, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to call this what it is, especially in a city where on average one third of income goes to housing expense." We broke up. Some men do expect to be paid for, as well as expect to be able to lie about it. My parents were a classic sugar/taker couple so I'm acutely aware of such situations.

[heypyro.livejournal.com]

I once had a guy offer me $2000 at the Lonestar to go home with him. Yes, I turned him down.

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

Hmmmmm... that doesn't sound like a sugar daddy ... more like a "john", particularly if it was a one time offer:) I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to turn the offer down. I also think the dynamic I'm speaking of works both ways. There are younger guys who pay for things, who are the driving, working force in a household. I think they should be acknowledged too. I know you have a healthy outlook on this subject. Hugs!

[markosf.livejournal.com]

Fool!

[bearfuz.livejournal.com]

Not to glamorize or apologize for the Sugar Daddy dynamic, but I do think that sometimes we are quick to make assumptions based on what we see on the surface. As with the couple you described, the younger man may have initially appeared to be a sycophant, but it turned out that he was investing a lot of time and energy in maintaining their home(s).

Traditional sex-discordant marriage (I enjoy that term, as nasty as it is) used to specify that only one of the partners worked outside the home and the other one was to stay home and take care of it. Sure, there were often also offspring to take care of as well, but not always. Would we have characterized a woman in such a relationship as a golddigger? Well, maybe if she was very young and he was rich and old. So, on the surface, that which people saw and criticized was nearly always about the age difference, since they wouldn't have had the opportunity to look deeper and see how the young woman pulled her weight in the household or the relationship.

I was partnered with a man 27 years my senior. Tyler and I fell head over heels for each other, but when I first moved in with him in Palm Springs, I'm sure it looked for all the world as if I was a golddigger (though he wasn't particularly rich). I have to say I felt much better about my part in the relationship after I got a job with the Les Misérables tour, even though it meant that we would spend significant amounts of time apart. But when he'd come out to the tour and visit me for, say, a month in Philadelphia or Detroit, it was nice to be the one who was paying for the hotel room.

Initially I didn't think much about what it must have looked like to, say, his friends, those who had known him much longer than I had. When Tyler passed away not quite four years into our relationship, only then did I begin to wonder what the whole thing might have looked like to those who might have snarked. I haven't particularly let it bother me, though. In any case, I'm certainly not one to judge May-December relationships, unless there is actual exploitation going on, which I'm not always in a position to judge.

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

I believe there can be very successful relationships where there is a great difference in age, but there are a lot of issues to address and overcome. Those of us outside of a particular relationship, examining it as friends will do, don't always get an accurate portrayal of what's happening inside the pairing. With longevity of the coupling, it often becomes clearer.

In the example of my friends in Palm Springs, the older gentleman does use his money as a controlling factor, as a tool to keep the younger one's companionship; but the unexpected happened, the younger guy truly cares about him and has evolved from a diamond in the rough. The elder has almost been a teacher of life to him. Theirs is a relationship which will last...

My friends' relationship wouldn't work for me, but I have been the younger partner in a relationshp. David was 11 years older than me. In the second, Tim was 19 years younger than me. I believe they were both healthy, successful relationships built on mutual respect and I cherish both men. I hope to find the same... hopefully, lightning will strike again and bring me someone wonderful:)

[ciddyguy.livejournal.com]

I've never fully understood the "sugar daddy" thing as in my mind, it does seem like golddigging, when infact it may not be.

However, unless one is making oodles of money, it's very difficult these days in most cases to live with only one partner making all the money. That said, there was a time when the wife stayed at home, the hubby worked for the bacon was simply expected and if anything differed from that, people looked ascance at the situation as what does she have to prove? Now, it's clear that most families need to have both parents working, just to survive in many cases.

That said, I would not judge a guy who is perfectly happy to stay home and clean the house etc and the other worked for the income necessary to run a household and that's fine, but there again, I also agree that both need to be fully aware of the situation before hand.

I have chatted with a fellow who lives in Springfield Mass who once lived with an older fellow until some young guy came in and basically "brainwashed " the older guy into leaving my friend and now, this young guy is taking advantage of Armand, the older fellow. It's sad, but true.

So there are those who purposfully go and distroy a relationship for someone they want - and it be for the money etc.

But I do agree that it's usually best that both try and pull their own weight in a household, both work and contribute. But I also agree that if one falls ill, or looses a job, that the other should step in and help out until the partner can resume working.

To me, a relationship is a two way street and both should work euqally at making it work and at times, give and take whenever necessary when the need arises.

[poohbearjim.livejournal.com]

Warning, long reply

I've been on both sides of this.

My ex was quite wealthy and used money like water, and he really was of the mind that the more expensive something was, the better it was. We were friends first, but then I moved back to Virginia and he moved back home to Aruba. We lost touch for a couple of years.

I got a call from him one day, out of the blue, just to say hello and also to ask me a favor due to my proximity to Washington, DC. He wanted some prints of some NASA photos, but at the time, you had to go into the NASA headquarters in DC to go through their files to place the order. (No internet yet.) He sent me money to pay for them (five hundred dollars) and asked me to send them down when done. I was happy to help out a friend, and since I held a big interest in space as well, it was something I found fun to do.

Afterwards, I had about $200 left over and asked him how I should get the money back to him (a US check wouldn't work in Aruba), and he insisted I keep it for my trouble. I insisted that I couldn't take that much money, and that I had enjoyed what I did. He retorted that he would be upset if I didn't keep it, and that he really wanted me to have it. Reluctantly I did.

Over the next few months, since I was working for American Airlines, I flew down to see him a few times. We fell in love and developed a relationship, eventually agreeing that I would request a transfer to Ft Lauderdale so that I could move into his empty house as well as be much closer to Aruba such that a weekly commute wouldn't be that difficult.

Over the next couple of years he started showering more and more gifts and money on me. I was living in a house much out of my affordability, but he sent money constantly for upkeep and for my living expenses. Yes, I was working full-time, but a ticket agent's salary didn't pay all that much.

He also started making more and more demands on me and my time. I started burning out on the commute every week and told him that I needed to stay home every once in a while. He objected but relented, not letting me forget that he was keeping me in that lifestyle. His demands of me started getting ridiculous, and he expected me to jump when he said so. I considered breaking up, but that is when I discovered I was dependent on him (I had been in denial of that up to then). I had also quit my job in order to go back to school full-time with him paying the tuition. Leaving was scary, but I couldn't go on much longer, either.

We got to the breaking point and I left. I was high-and-dry, needing to find a place to live and a job. I only had the money in our joint checking account, which wasn't much, but it was enough to tide me through my first paycheck.

Interestingly, I went in the other direction from there. I worked full-time and went to school full-time. I felt dirty after the previous four years and felt that I needed to work extremely hard to purge the memories of having been "kept."

I met Ray and we quickly fell head-over-heels in love. Ray was the polar opposite to my ex with regard to finances - he was responsible with money and made sure that we each paid our way. That was a great influence on me, and by the time I graduated from the University of Miami, I had a 3.7 GPA in a double major, all the while gaining accolades at work for my responsibility and quality of work. I felt vindicated, and better yet, I shed the feeling that I had been a whore in the years previous.

This has given me a low tolerance for these "sugar daddy" relationships, and I know that more times than not, it results in low self-esteem and resentment between the partners. Still, I can understand how they may come about, and I feel a bit sorry for them as well.

Warning: Even longer Reply:)

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

Jim! Thanks for sharing your story! You illustrate so vividly so many of the thoughts I have on this topic. My first partner was a Jesuit and had taken a vow of poverty. When we were together, I was occasionally performing, but my main job was a low-paying, but satisfying job as a news reporter. Every summer, his closest friends, a straight couple, would take us on wonderful holidays to Victoria, Seattle, Breckinridge, Santa Fe, Taos, Jackson Hole, etc.

They would provide luxurious housing, prepare elaborate meals or take us to gourmet restaurants ... take care of every need, but it came at a price. There was an underlying desire to control which made me very uncomfortable. If you were invited on the trip, you jumped when they said jump. I was especially vulnerable knowing how much things cost, that I didn't have the means to pay for such luxury myself and my self-esteem did suffer.

I wanted to be able, and allowed, to take everyone out to dinner at least once during the vacation ... or to contribute in some way. It eventually became one of the triggers in the ending of my relationship. I didn't like the sense of helplessness I felt with someone paying my way. Even though on the surface, they were overwhelmingly generous. But the generosity came with strongs.

I have tried ever since not to do the same to other people. I like surprising and gifting the ones I love, but I try to gift with the price tag removed and no due bill in my dreams in a drawer:) I really appreciate you telling me this cautionary tale.

[shadowbearmn.livejournal.com]

I also have a difficult time understanding the mindset of someone wanting a "Sugar Daddy to take care of them. Its been my experience that if both parties know the dynamic of that kind of a relations.....whatever works for them works for them.

I am like you, I prefer to pay my own way as much as possible and have a partner who does the same. But having also dated guys without jobs and being the one who paid for almost everything. I can say, there are times I didn't mind...but my paying was offered freely and wasn't expected. Usually, If I asked if they wanted to go out, their response was they didn't have any money. My offer was for it to be my treat...if they hadn't said that....I wouldn't have dated them. And there were a few who expected me to be the one always paying. Thats not a relationship I care to explore.

Respect for other and not expecting others to carry your load is alot different than someone wanting to have everything paid for them. Sometimes you don't have the resources to afford going out and its nice having friends/partners who understand that situation (as long as its not abused).

If someone wants a "Sugar Daddy' who pays to be with them...that is NOT a Healthy Functional relationship....that's a business transaction.

And like you, I will continue to work on my finances and getting ahead. Eventually, someone will catch my eye and capture my heart...then I will settle down into a equal partnership/relationship that is not financially based.

[handlebear.livejournal.com]

I've seen successful sugar daddy relationships. But at the same time both partners had their eyes wide open and had agreed to the hidden rules of such a relationship.

I've also seen a number of very unhappy ones where power was wielded by the person with the money.

One of my exes and I started making out about the same amount of salary. At the end of our relationship, he was making about double what I was making. It led to a real power inbalance in the relationship. (He was about 10 yrs older).

I know that I don't want to be anyone's sugar daddy:)

Oh, what the hell?...

[tkn1114.livejournal.com]

What brought this on, Neil?

. i was'nt gonna comment on this post had bearfuz not shared his beautiful and positive experience with his lover Tyler with you.
. Chip alone would know the terms of his relationship which need no qualification or justification. I hope he'll continue to cherish the memory and will never be self-conscions of that relationship. Why? If it was honest and mutual?
. Secondly, I'm really sorry that poohbearjim has had a negative experience that could have been positive had his lover been the kind gentleman that he could have been.
. And last but not least, I'm also sorry that you, Neil, have had to put up with cheap powerplay you should never have been subject to.

But these very personal stories you all share only serve to confirm how civilized most people in this country really are. They are not.
After all, ours is a country of the money god and of self-interest which manifests itself very naturally in monetary terms.
You slap your pile of cash down on the table and you think you can own everything invluding people. This is in everything from commerce to relationships in our culture. It is one of the good reasons why we are despised and scorned the world over.
To be sure, I'm not saying other people in the world don't do this, but i don't think they feel the 'entitlement' Americans do to behave this way.

So I'll share this story with you: In the 80's, when I arrived in Italy, i was fortunate enough to meet a famous photographer at Milan's Linate airport. I had no idea who he was at the time but this handsome older man immediately fancied me for which I was not only flattered but grateful. He gave me his card and said to call after i finished the work I came for. Not wanting to leave Italy yet, I did.
When I finally realized who he was, this gentleman's KINDNESS and CLASS opened up doors and possibilities to me never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined. Let's just say he provided me with guidance and contacts with whom I made enough money within less than a year-time to branch out on my own at the tender age of 24 with a collection serving Bergdorf-Goodman's among a roster of top international retailers.
The glamorous parties, endless vacations with the most beautiful boys in the world (and yes, I sampled plenty!), never mind all manners of sumptuous presents from him without EVER a hint of obligation or pay-back (i.e. "you owe me" - which I did) were nothing short of the stuff fairy tales are made of.
Everytime he hugged me, I felt like a million bucks. He told me that I was a jewel and so he was treating me like one.
Once, I asked him why he has done all he has done for me and how could I ever pay him back so to be 'fair'. He smiled and said: "Is life not more pleasant and beautiful kind instead of fair? Fair is good business but poor for relationships. I've helped you because I like you and because i believe in what you do. It is a gift, it is not an exchange. That would be unworthy of our relationship". Then he said: "May be later, you'll pass it on to another person?". I cried and asked him he wanted to make love to me. He said: "Yes, very much". Yet, he had NEVER asked! I said to him that this was MY gift to him. So we made love and it was the most passionate and fullfilling experience which undoubtedly helped shape my outlook on love and life ever since.
The years I spent in Italy remain among the most tender moments in my life. I was'nt the only one he treated like this at the time or thereafter even though I flatter myself with the belief that I might have been a little more special than others.

In short, there are men who are kind and classy and there are men who are cheap and manipulative. It's just that simple. I assure you of one thing, Neil: I shall extend the courtesy my italian mentor and lover extended me to you should we ever become real-life friends or anyone else I consider my friend unless they prove unworthy of such courtesy.

Thanks for letting me take up space to share my 2 cents and fond memories regarding this topic which, too often, seems to bear an unecessarily negative light in this country but should'nt.

Re: Oh, what the hell?...

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

There are men who are kind and classy and there are men who are cheap and manipulative.

I appreciate your graceful telling of your relationship with a very special man. It also called to my attention that I perhaps have a very "American" take on such relationships. I will examine it. As a young man, I was stubborn (and perhaps foolish) about not letting another man, especially older men, assist me in making my way in life. I was attracted to older men, but didn't want the attraction to be misinterpreted as one with a financial component.

The genesis for this post simply came from Tim and I talking about being taken care of....in jest. I then began to think about the dynamic of relationships where one of the men could be perceived as a "sugar daddy"... then to wonder if this still happens. I make no judgments. I've never been on either side of this dynamic, other than in trying to be generous with my friends and partners. I also have always tried to be very honest with myself if there's even a hint of an ulterior motive.

What is wonderful is to hear the experiences that Chip, Jim and you have had...the lessons you learned and how they resulted in real growth for you as people. May you find a worthy individual where you can pass on the the legacy of your mentor. Thanks for sharing your story.

PS to my novel

[tkn1114.livejournal.com]

BTW, as far as I'm concerned, there are no victims in life except in the case of rape or pedophilia. People have noone but themselves to blame if they accept to be in unbalanced or unhappy relationships.

Almost 30 years age difference

[cimarrondfw.livejournal.com]

I cannot keep from commenting on this post and subsequent other comments. Once I allowed myself to be my gay self, I did not really expect that I might be blessed by some sort of real relationship, then suddenly there he was. We both liked one another almost immediately, even though I began to attempt to discourage him, saying I was too old for him, etc. He'd be "widowed" forever if we took up. He'd have to put up with the frailties of an aging man. He reminded me of possible shortcomings for me if I took up with him. Then we did it anyway. We became a couple rather early in our acquaintance.

Our love for one another has become so intense. Maybe our age spread even helps each other. I tend to feel younger than I am. He is sometimes forced to "grow up" when I complain that some comment is too immature. I've encouraged him to complete his college degree that got sidetracked ten years before. He finds and reminds me of my overlooked assets. We're good for each other.

On June 28, 2003 we had a holy union at our church--a big deal for both of us but maybe especially meaningful for Charlie, who (unlike me) had not had the standard wedding to a member of the opposite sex. It was a heartfelt moment in our lives. Our song, Neil, a long-time favorite of mine, was "Eres tú," originally recorded by Mocedades. I love the beautiful lyrics and the profound symbolism.

One of the more humorous comments I've had came from my firstborn (who probabaly struggles the most with having a gay dad) when he complained, "Dad, he's my age!" My retort, "Well, lots of children in a 'second marriage' get a much younger stepmother so I guess you'll have to decide what really bothers you most. Is it his age, or that he is a man?"

I may have made more money initially, but since I've retired, it's been and will become increasingly so very much the other way around. No school teacher is rich. LOL