mrdreamjeans | Memories and Frontiers

Current Mood: curious
Current Music: The Nanny in the background:)

Memories and Frontiers

If you married your partner, would you take his/her last name? I had never considered what I would do until I reconnected with a friend in Germany last night. On September 5, 2003 my friend Daniel married his partner/lover/husband/husbear (What is a good term for this?) in a full church wedding, as well as in a civil ceremony held in Berlin’s City Hall the previous day.

Daniel and Stefan had an old-fashioned courtship. When I was working in Europe in 2002, Stefan formally proposed to Daniel during a romantic vacation and Daniel accepted. I was one of the first friends to hear the news. I was invited to the wedding, and if I couldn’t make that, to join them at some point on their honeymoon trip, Montreal or New York City. I wasn’t able to do either at the time as the funds to do so just weren’t there.

Daniel’s background is one I find uniquely European. His parents have been married nearly 40 years, yet his father has also had a Black male partner for over 20 years. The wife and lover know each other well and comfortably co-exist. Daniel’s straight sister is a policewoman. Stefan’s father is a truck driver. Everyone marches together in Pride Parades and Peace Marches. Everyone attended and supported the guys’ wedding and honor their relationship. To an American such as myself, this is the stuff of legends.... and it inspires.

When I met Daniel in Berlin in 1991, he took me to a performance of “Verdi’s Requiem” in a 17th century concert hall in East Berlin. (This was just a short time after the wall came down.) Daniel’s father was conducting the 85-piece orchestra and Daniel and his mother were singing in the 120-piece chorus. The performance and setting created an indelible memory. This special moment cemented our 13-year friendship which we renewed upon my return to Europe for a tour of “Evita” in 2002.

The months in Germany in 2002 gave me the opportunity to meet Stefan and to grow to like him. He adores Daniel, and Daniel is humbled by the adoration. They are a study in opposites.. Daniel came out at 13 and was in the bars and baths by mid-teens; Stefan is a late-bloomer and Daniel is his first love. Previously, Daniel wouldn’t date you unless you were over 40; Stefan and Daniel are very close in age. Whatever the differences, the chemistry is there.

Last evening Daniel sent me an instant message online, an occurence that made me particularly happy as we hadn’t spoken in several months and I didn’t have his new information. When I received the new address and phone number, I was surprised by one item. Daniel had taken his partner’s last name!

For some reason this shocked me. Daniel’s father is fairly famous in Germany, so the name is well-known. I understand honoring Stefan; but, at the same time, is this somehow disrespectful to Daniel’s family and their history? I can‘t even decide if I were in a relationship, and wanted to more formally cement the bond of love, what I would call the other person. Partner seems too business-like; significant other - too fussy and forced; lover - too public ; boyfriend - too casual; companion - mercenary.

I’ve never considered taking someone else’s name. When I thought I’d marry my college sweetheart, we thought we’d, at the most, hyphenate our last names. It feels like a sacrifice to me; I erase my identity and offer it to you. I would feel this way regardless of the gender combination involved.

Am I making too much fuss over a friend’s choice? I am intrigued though.... Would you choose to be identified as a couple using one last name? Does it, in an odd sense, replace the infrequent practice in previous decades, of adopting your partner to protect inheritance rights? Does this mean Daniel has assumed the role of “wife”? ( No judgement here, just curiosity...)

Would you take one name if children were involved? Would you feel comfortable as Mr. and Mr. Dan _____ or Ms. and Ms. Mary _____ ? The Jones - George and Bob? The Robertsons - Lynn and Laura, MD? Does this mean that Europeans are way ahead of us? Afterall, many of the rights we aspire to in America have been law in Europe for some time. Is taking your partner’s last name in marriage a step forward or step backward? I’d like to know what you think. It’s a new frontier.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

The growing American trend these days seems to keep emphasis on the woman keeping her own name. Why should she have to assume her identity if she prefers to keep her own? Thats not to say there aren't issues with this- my sister Jeanne still gets flak from people for keeping her name instead of taking Bernies. I think taking the name of your spouse is a extra step for some people, one that signifies a level of commiment thats really unnecessary these days. But you do raise a point- what about the children? Personally, in these situations, I think the kids should hyphenate the last names until they get old enough to pick what they want.
Does this mean Europeans are more advanced? Probably- in general, they seem to be much more tolerant of different lifestyles. In Daniel's family's case, his parents seem to be comfortable with their flamboyant life. They also sound like they are very supportive of Daniel, so I imagine they wouldn't have issues with his taking his partner's name for his own. I'd be curious to see how they feel about it though. Its certainly worthwhile to find out.

"The growing American trend these days seems to keep emphasis on the woman keeping her own name."? Oh my God! Feminism is still hip in US? (LOL)

Excusez-moi but the whole name thing is pure crap. The only serious problem is what happens with the kids, if they exist. Choose what they like when they get "old enough"? That could set a whole new trend! ("Hey, I woke up this morning in the mood to change my last name.") Analysts are going to love this, anyway...

Yeah, I'm subversive that way... I even think for myself and believe reality television sucks!

Another thought I had was that I believe it used to be common for parents to give their children gender-lineage based last names.
Jane Doe marries Michael Smith, they have two children, Sarah and Tom
Sarah, takes Jane's last name = Sarah, Daughter of Doe
Tom takes Michael's last name = Tom, Son of Smith

if we have a same-sex couple who are the parents, then I vote for whatever the kids want.

Nice idea, Kow! It actually mirrors the naming convention suggested in a S/F story I read, but they switched genders: Sons took their MOTHER'S last name; daughters took their FATHER's.

Now, to answer an earlier question. I think women began taking their husband's names for at least two reasons: For the longest time, wives were considered the PROPERTY of their husbands. What better way to show this than thru a name change? Secondly, it made tracing lineage and inheritance rights easier.

I have a difficult time with definitions because none of them sound right to me. "Boyfriend" is too casual for most, though I don't mind it. "Lover" implies only a sexual element. "Partner" is too formal and business-like. And "life partner" and "significant other" are so PC they set my teeth on edge at the mere sound of them.

I wouldn't want to take Steve's last name or hyphenate our names. I just don't see the point. I've always kind of looked at hyphenation as arrogant and, at times, grandstanding.

Would you be comfortable calling Steve your spouse?

No, "spouse" is still too distant and clinical.

Names are too personal to mess around with...especially by outsiders. If a person wishes to take his/her spouse's last name, fine; if they retain their own, great. For some, this is personal, for other's it's professional (One woman I know adores her husband, but does not wish to be known professionally as "Sally Valley"). Hyphenating strikes me as pretentious, and cumbersome.

Assuming that same-sex marriages become a reality, this is a opportunity for us to re-write the book. Who, in the relationship, takes the partner's name? If they hyphenate, who gets top billing? Do they blend their names into a new one? If there are children involved, who's name(s) should they take? Should there even BE a standard? What WILL Miss Manners and Emily Post make of this?

In your experience, do you think that name selection unconsciously follows sexual billing? Top - Bottom; Dominant - Submissive; Top- Dominant-Last name use as a couple. Think there is any correlation? I don't have a fixed opinion on this. Just musing...I don't intend this as heresy. I speak to fascination with the roles and how we use language. Thanks for commenting on my entry.

My experience in dealing with Dominant/Submissive couples is exceedingly limited, however, depending on how seriously a couple takes their roles, the decision of who gets "top billiing" need not be unconscious at all. Your assumption seems logical, but like you, I cannot verify it.

You know, I have actually thought about this some, but haven't come up with much of an answer.

It's funny, I like the idea of sharing a name, it makes the marriage more, I don't know, solidified (not sure that's the best word), yet when I think of it, I don't think I'd want to give up my name. I look at the two relationships I've been in, and thought if I got married and took the others name, mine would be, "Keith Black" or "Keith Nickolaus". Or if the other had taken my name they'd be "Kevin Johnson" or "John Johnson". I'm sure with Kevin he'd insist because he's the "bear" and I'm the "cub" I would have to take his last name. With John I'd guess at first impulse he would want to take mine, but not after he thinks about how it would sound. Ultimately I could give up my last name, like I said I like the idea of sharing one, I think my family would be the ones to worry about being upset about it more than me.

Yet again, I don't know. Why should one have to give up their last name? Why does it really matter? What an interesting topic.

One of my cousins is getting married this weekend, and recently she made the joke, "I like my last name, I wish I could keep it" or something like that, and I found it odd that she would feel like she doesn't have a choice, joking or not. How was it decided that the woman has to take the man's name to begin with anyway? Is it just because the man is traditionally the dominant figure in a marriage?

I'll sum it up with, personally, I wouldn't mind, and might even like it, but as it concerns to everyone in the world, I just don't know.

Thanks Keith for responding. I find it interesting that your cousin doesn't feel she has a choice. I wonder if her response is an outgrowth of a traditional Midwest upbringing. How sad that she doesn't see choices.

I also think that replies to my questions in "Memories and Frontiers" can vary according to the kind of spiritual/religious/pagan values people hold. What do you think? I know your religious upbringing informs who you are in many ways and that you search for knowledge, guidance and wisdom in terms of easing the conflict between your faith and your sexuality...or your parents' conflict over the issue.

I also wonder how much labeling is a generational issue... do couples who are close in age feel differently than couples where one partner is significantly older than the other in terms of taking a single name to identify themselves? Do couples who have been togther 40 years and those who have been together 2 years make different choices just because of that fact? Is it cultural or political?

I find it interesting that you said one of your partners would want you to use his last name, because he was the bear and you were the cub. Does that speak to the issue of dominant/submissive? Of course, I am so hard-headed, but fair, I would never agree to that, even as the bear:) You gave me much to think about. Hugs!

It's funny I have to do this considering the topic on hand, but, I first need to point out, Neither Kevin or John would I refer to as a "partner". Not yet anyway.

You've discussed a few options of terms, and pondered what are the appropriate ways to refer to another's significant other depending on the seriousness of the relationship. Personally I think it should be the same for everyone. If you get married, the male person is the husband, and the female is the wife, even if it's to males, then they are each others husbands, and so the same goes for two women, they would be each others wives. Before that there is the who fiance step, nicely a shared terminology :o) And before that boy/girlfriends, and before that, it's just the person -guy or gal, one is dating, or interested in. I never intent to use the term "partner" for it just separates gays from straights, when to me, we are all just people. No need to find our identity in our sexuality.

But I do realize that the term "partner" is a real term in the here and now, and commonly used to describe the equivalent of a gay couple who is married. Which is why I feel the need to point out, that neither Kevin or John, are or have been, my "partner".

So with all that said and the way I feel about the terms, I still find the challenge of the "Last Name Issue" challenging to wrap my head around. I say I want the gays and straights to all be the same, and it works for the terms of husband, wife, boyfriend, or girlfriend. But how does one handle the last name?

It could be as simple as if you want to go for it, if you don't, then don't. Or like you said, is it the dominant/submissive thing happening?

I still don't know.

We talked about it. Rather than take each other's last name when we got married, we thought we'd create a new one from them. But "Gartag" and "Freiceau" just look and sound weird.

We know a couple who both had the same first name. They changed their last names to the common first name, their first names to their middle names, and their former last names to their middle names. Got it? So

John James Doe
and
John Michael Doohickey

became

James Doe John
and
Michael Doohickey John

Much too complicated!! (Although people always used to refer to them as "The Johns," so it continued to work). As it happens, we have the same middle name, but the spelling is slightly different ("Earle" and "Earl"). We thought of using one or the other, but that seemed silly too.

So we've kept our names. People just call us "Jack and Steve."

See, I screwed it up!! Their middle names to their first names!!!

What if you had kids? ;-)

I appreciate the feedback, guys. I realize now that I left out spouse as one of the choices. I think I would feel very comfortable with this term in my relationship (next one I have:).

It hadn't occured to me to make up a new name out of the two last names. I just spoke with a friend here in Seattle and he said the trend to do so is increasingly more common here. Of course, there are problems with that if the names don't form a graceful combination as some of you have pointed out. I'm looking forward to more comments. Thanks!

Blending names is a sweet idea, but what do you do with names like Applebee and O'Reily? O'Bee? Applereily? O'Apply?

You can see it becomes a mess, quickly.

I am working with another actor and his last name is Crook. My last name is Badders. How does BadCrook or BadCrookers sound? Doesn't always work..hmmm..unless we were a rock band or something...LOL! Thanks again for your comments.

Hyphenating gets even worse. Imagine Ms. Emily Doe-Smith marrying Mr. John Mneme-Jones: They'd become John & Emily Doe-Smith-Mneme-Jones...and those are monosyllabic names!

While you're at it, do you WANT to become Mr Badders-Crook or Crook-Badders? Again, it gets messy.

I think Peter's partner of 10 + years would object:) I might consider hyphenation if I went the route of childrearing/ parenting. My brother has three sons, so there is no worry about my last name, as it is, disappearing.

My concerns might be more professional in nature as I have been working for 25 years as an union actor and so I am known by my peers and those who hire in a certain way.

There are no concerns toward linage, in my case. My brother and his wife are childless and my sisters are both Lesbians without a maternal bone in their bodies. This branch of the family line ends with us.

In my Gay-themed writings and in my cartooning, I operate under the name "Bruin"; on stage and with the local Gay men's chorus, I use my given name. After 27 years of living with my man, a name change this late in the game would be....confusing. Blending our names or hyphenating them would be, at best, cumbersome and overly-long (15 letters, not counting the hyphen).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Memories and Frontiers

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Lingo

Re: Lingo

no subject

Top Billing

Re: Top Billing

I don't know...

Generational

Re: Generational

no subject

no subject

no subject

Would You Take Your Partner's Name?

Re: Would You Take Your Partner's Name?

Re: Would You Take Your Partner's Name?

Re: Would You Take Your Partner's Name?

Just an Example...

Re: Just an Example...